This week Paul talks with journalist and Sydney Morning Herald’s North Asia correspondent, Eryk Bagshaw (2007) about his journey, geopolitics, IGS and much, much more…
Eryk Bagshaw (2007)
Paul Galea:
Eryk Bagshaw? It’s Paul Galea from International Grammar. Your old teacher/aftercare man and boss. How are you, mate?
Eryk:
Oh, I’m great. Thanks.
Paul Galea:
So let me just introduce who you are. You left school in 2007, then you worked in aftercare. You are a guy who went all the way through from Kindy to Year 12. Then you worked in aftercare for many, many years, while you were at uni studying, and then you went on a pathway to become a journalist. And you are now the Sydney Morning Herald Asia correspondent or China correspondent; the North Asia correspondent. So, many people will know you from your writings in the Herald. But what I’m interested in knowing is the journey you took to get to where you are today. So you can start talking and I’ll interrupt you. And I sort of feel like this is something I would like to know a bit more about, myself.
Eryk:
Right. I didn’t quite do preschool at IGS, but went to Primary, then, as you said, we went all the way through, and I think there were a good bunch of us at that time, around 1995. So we were at the old campus in Surrey Hills, and then moved, I think, probably in Year 2 or 3. We moved so we sort of saw both sides of what was once a pretty small school that turned into a really big school. But we kind of grew up together through it, and, yeah, a lot of those old mates from then, I’ve still got today, so I think that shows how strong that connection is.
Paul Galea:
Before we go further, name a few names. Who are some of the guys that you’re still friends with? That you went all the way through school with?
Eryk:
Oh, Tyson Perkins , Billy, Seamus, Matts and, God, who else? A whole bunch of them all the way from in primary school, which I think is pretty rare these days; certainly talking to friends who went to other schools. That’s kind of a bit of a unique situation. So I think we were really lucky in that and then, yeah, we had high school; a big, wonderful, exciting journey through that which, I think, challenged us. And we did things like exchanges. I think we also managed to form pretty close, almost friendships, with our teachers as well. You know, there’s a lot of respect there, but but we could also have a dialogue and a chat in a way, that kind of broke down a lot of the barriers that might have been present in other places. I think that that probably made us just grow up pretty quick. A lot of those experiences, around the school, the travel, the kind of extracurricular stuff meant that we kind of, particularly in creative areas, really fostered, a love of the arts and a love of languages and a love of new experiences. And to be fair, that’s probably also reflected in what a lot of my mates from school are doing today. They are very much in those fields. There’s still a lot of love there amongst my friends about IGS. And again, you don’t often as much hear kids from other schools talk about how much they enjoyed their time at school where you know, I think it’s pretty rare to hear someone saying they had a bad time in IGS.
Paul Galea:
Interesting. Very interesting. So you left school. You did pretty well as I recall. Very well as I recall and you went to uni. Tell us a little bit about how that all went down.
Eryk:
Well, I actually started out kind of wanting to be a film director. I went to uni. I definitely had journalism as a sort of side goal. Tyson and I used to make films when we were in school, and that was really great fun but pretty soon after arriving at uni, I just worked out that I really wasn’t creative enough. So I went down a kind of totally different path, which was really down into print journalism. Unfortunately, the reality with media then was that you really had to do a lot of internships, working for free for a good couple of years before you could get your foot in the door for a full time job. Fortunately, that sort of part of the industry is changing now because I think it’s really problematic around unpaid internships. It kind of means that people, who don’t have as many resources, might not be able to do them. But at that time, we were sort of basically working for free for a couple of years. So I worked at a place like Sydney Film Festival. I worked at Channel Nine, then I got my first paid gig as this kind of associate producer, compiling segments of things like the Today Show and 2GB Radio. And then I went for a cadetship at the Sydney Morning Herald, and I didn’t really think I’d get it because most of my background was in production and film and other things but at that time, the way the business was being structured meant they actually wanted people with video and production skills to come and join the company. I think I got a bit lucky.
Paul Galea:
Yeah, because that was the time where it was going from basically purely paper to be becoming a bit of an online paper.
Eryk:
Yeah, and video was the future. Video was where you could basically get revenues through online stuff . And so there was a big push to get people with those sorts of skills in the door. I guess I just happened to have them so that meant that I got a foot in the door. Started in 2014, and then really I transformed that into a love mostly of print and of writing and of reporting and it meant that I went from being a cadet to an education reporter and writing about, controversial private school feuds, which is Sydney Morning Herald ‘bread and butter’, as well as about the universities and so on. Then I went to Canberra for four years and covered federal politics. I covered the Turnbull, Abbott Governments and Morrison, actually. After four years in Canberra covering federal politics and economics, I got a gig as a foreign correspondent, and I went to Asia.
Paul Galea:
It’s an interesting journey. And again, it’s so interesting that people end up in places that they didn’t really think they were going to end up in when they walked out those gates of school. People end up in a lot of different places, so I think that’s very interesting. So obviously you were down in Canberra with the political side. Did you have to impress people with your sort of knowledge of international events or the international world to get the gig as the North Asia correspondent? Or is that something which you’ve learned along the way, or give us a bit of that background?
Eryk:
Yeah, I think I gravitated towards it, particularly when I was covering economics. Shout out to Mr White there! I have to say, I probably wasn’t the best economic student, but God, it came in handy when I when I was covering Canberra. That meant that things like geopolitics and trade and diplomacy all come into a particularly economic frame. And it means you can really kind of go, “Alright. Why does something happening in China affect what is happening with inflation in Australia?” It’s sort of then bringing in new sort of interest which already existed for me in international affairs, I think because of, for a lot of reasons the way our school is. You’re bringing that into a domestic audience and that means that you’ve got both the background and the interest, and I guess the aptitude to make it into a kind of a compelling story. So definitely, I think from the get go when I was down there, I was ‘l want to move into that space.’ Not that at that time, particularly, Australian politics wasn’t interesting. I mean, we were a spill a minute, for a while there. But I think that I probably always had the goal when I was in Canberra that my next step would be a foreign correspondent position. So I just made sure to carve out as much space as I could to get in there. And then, I think, as it happened, it seemed to work out.
Paul Galea:
Just tell me if I’m wrong. Didn’t you arrive in China just about the time where it all fell apart with COVID?
Eryk:
That was… Yeah, it’s complicated and a little sensitive, so I’ll just have to be careful how I talk about it. Our visas were blocked by China, and it was at a time when the ABC and the Financial Review correspondents had to be rushed out of China because of security concerns. Another Australian journalist had just been detained in China. And so then our visa was simultaneously blocked, and at the same time, there were the border closures around. That situation has been a really difficult one to get through, and we’re still working through it. I got back into Beijing last year. Yeah. I got back to Beijing last year for the, Olympics, for four or so weeks. But getting in and out is still really tricky, which is why we had to move out, move our bureau, out of China and base it in Singapore for the time being. So we cover the rest of Asia from there.
Paul Galea:
Yeah, OK, because I remember that. Probably bumped into you somewhere or something. And I remember that was a bit of a challenging point for your first posting. Now, speaking of posting, is that something that you look to maybe go somewhere else at some stage, or are you happy to stay in Asia for the time being? Or is that something that you’re thinking about even now? Or are you just hanging in there for the moment to just wait and see what happens?
Eryk:
Look, definitely down the track. I think I’d be keen to to do a another one, maybe at some point in the future, but it’s sort of take it as it goes. The first year we were stuck in Australia because of COVID restrictions. The last two years we’ve been overseas. I’ve got one more year left on my posting, and then we’ll see what we’ll see. What happens after that, basically, I think we’ll probably have time to come home for a bit and then we’ll work out what happens, I guess, both both personally and professionally from there. But there’s no doubt it’s kind of a dream job; the ability to cover any story in the region, the ability to basically write about whatever you see is interesting across Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, South Korea. All these kind of magical places, which are so diverse, sometimes controversial and interesting. Makes it a pretty exciting gig! And yeah, you know, I’ve been been lucky enough to be able to travel throughout the region for the last couple of years, so it’s pretty addictive.
Paul Galea:
Ok, can I ask you a couple of quick questions? Firstly, I’m going to Taiwan and South Korea and to Japan on a reunion tour in early June. I know you’re in Singapore, but I’m wondering whether we might be able to catch up in one of those exotic points? The other one is I’m really interested in is you’re living as an expat in Singapore? Is that an enjoyable life? Is that something which has been, really great or something that you’ve had to get used to or something that’s been just an incredible experience. Because sometimes I’m not sure. I sort of take for granted that, when people are living as an expat in a foreign country, I always take it for granted that they’re having a great time. Is that what your experience is? And sorry. One other question – you keep saying about ‘we’. I’m assuming that that’s your partner?
Eryk:
Yes, yes, absolutely. My partner. Yeah. First one, absolutely. Look, if I can somehow get a story up on what’s happening in Taiwan and South Korea, in those times, I’ll be there for sure! But, we’ll just have to work out what’s what in the diary. I would love nothing more than a beer in Taipei with you! The second question, about living as an expat. Well, the thing about Singapore is that, I’m probably on the road one of every two weeks. So you’re sort of living in a transitory kind of environment. Because Singapore is so accessible to the rest of Asia, it means that you are kind of constantly on flights, you know, covering different stories, and maybe spending a week or so on the road and then coming back. So it’s incredible for that, and you go to the airport here, it takes you twenty minutes, and then you walk through Customs etc and you’re on a plane, like catching a train. It’s just a completely different experience. But then living life, you know, it’s different. There are times when it can be challenging. Sure, you can miss home, but there are times where it’s brilliant because you’re exposing yourself to all sorts of new ideas and to new people, to the kind of characters that you would maybe never come across, if you just work at home in Sydney, for example, because it’s easier not to, because it’s comfortable. I think if you’re overseas and you get yourself into different environments, it just means that your perspective is so much broader, and that’s definitely something else I think IGS really instilled that into us from a very early age and I think we’ve taken that all the way through it. And it’s meant that opportunities like this definitely jumped up.
Paul Galea:
Yeah, that’s great, I think that an ongoing theme in these interviews is that people are open to those opportunities, and I think that’s a really important part of what we’ve done at our school, in terms of preparing people to sort of grasp things that come their way. And it’s just there all the time. Yeah, that’s great, mate. All right, I’m not going to ask you any more controversial questions, because I do know that you’re probably being, even my little podcast will probably be, monitored by various people. So I’m not gonna ask you if there are any…
Eryk:
No, no. Ask the question!
Paul Galea:
Alright. Well, we can edit it out anyway. OK, so I’ll ask you. Your experience of mainland China… you haven’t been over there that much, but I was actually just reading your article in the Herald this morning about how a lot of very rich Chinese people are getting their money over into Singapore. What’s your general take on China? Because, I mean, China has been in the news hugely over here in the last two months, you know, with the subs and Paul Keating and all that. What’s your vibe on how China is going at the moment and maybe even in relation to Australia?
Eryk:
I mean, there’s no doubt that China is increasingly authoritarian. It is building up its military capability at a faster rate than than any other country. Since the end of World War Two, it wants to become the dominant power in the Asia Pacific. I’d say that is all true but that’s also not that unexpected for a country that is potentially going to become the largest economy in the world by the end of this decade. You know, big, big countries, big governments have aspirations. And so all of those things mean that the military build up and some of its assertiveness is… you sort of price it in, basically. So the question is, what’s a responsible way of deterring some of the maybe unintended consequences of that? And that’s why you have debates. Well, no longer really debate on AUKUS. But that’s why you have things like the AUKUS submarine deal. That’s why you have foreign ownership legislation. That’s why you have a lot of the steps that have been taken by the US and Australia because they’re trying to prepare for every eventuality on the Australian and US side. It’s not as if they’re handling each of those steps particularly well. You know, there are, particularly in East Asian culture, there are ways of raising disagreements and sometimes a megaphone might not be the best method. Let’s say the COVID-19 inquiry might be a good example of it. There are steps that were taken that may have angered China in a way that may have been just a bit unnecessary, but, nonetheless the principles were correct. So it’s kind of like a constant balancing act. I think they’re grappling with that every day in Washington and Canberra, and it will continue to be the biggest story of our lives, I think, for the next few decades, because it fundamentally is a clash of different governments and different approaches to politics, different approaches to managing populations. China has been amazingly successful at marshalling resources and pulling hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. It’s just that the West, in many ways, doesn’t really like all of the political censorship, human rights and other baggage that comes with that. And, you know, we’ve seen what have been horrendous crackdowns in Hong Kong and Xinjiang and places like that, have, in some ways, I think, painted in pretty stark terms, the reality of some of China’s human rights issues.
Paul Galea:
Alright, that’s a very, very diplomatic, but excellent answer. All right, I’m going to get a prediction from you. I’m gonna be in Taiwan in early June. I don’t have to worry about taking my helmet and putting up the barb wire on the beaches of Taiwan?
Eryk:
Safe as houses, mate. I’ve been to those beaches, where they’ve fortified. And let me tell you, there is a cliff face that might be at least 30 to 40 metres high. It’s unbelievably hostile terrain. If there is to be an amphibious invasion, many hundreds of thousands of soldiers will die trying to get up those cliffs and onto those beaches. So, the worst case scenario is a couple of missile warnings, but that’s not likely to happen for for a few years yet, so I reckon Taiwan and June are pretty good.
Paul Galea:
Alright, Thank you. Well, that’s good. I’ll be able to tell the ‘missus’ that because she she keeps saying to me, ‘“Why are we going to Taiwan?”
Eryk:
It’s a great place. Food is amazing, too. Really good.
Paul Galea:
I’m looking forward to it. OK, mate. So, you’ve already spoken a fair bit about what IGS meant to you and some of the great things about it. I was wondering if you’ve got any advice, because a lot of the young students who are just on the verge of going out to the world, they listen to some of these podcasts. Have you got any advice that you might give to them in terms of getting to where they want to get or, you know, things like that?
Eryk:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think following your passion and what you’re interested in is definitely critical. Ultimately, you’re going to be working for more of your life than you’re not working. And you know, you might as well do it doing something you enjoy and finding a way, I guess, in kind of crude terms, to monetize that at the same time so that you can do both. To do what you want and be able to manage the stress of day to day life. It is kind of a bit of a balance, but it’s definitely worthwhile. And I think, unfortunately, for a lot of the roles, I guess that some IGS students would be interested in, whether across the arts or journalism or different creative fields can be really, really precarious, particularly when you’re starting out. Unfortunately, we don’t have great levels of arts funding, for example, in Australia, and there’s a lot of free work happening across those industries. But at the end of the day, you you can push through and you can hopefully, have both: do what you love and earn some money while you’re doing that. So it’s just about persevering, I think, and not being too discouraged early on. I think getting experiences outside of your comfort zone, whether it’s travelling, whether it’s doing stuff after school, whether it’s meeting different people at university, whether it’s putting on events. All those things kind of contribute to a sort of a rich tapestry or whatever you want to call it, that means that you’ll be better equipped to handle a variety of scenarios when you enter the professional world. It’s challenging yourself, being open to new possibilities that might not be that comfortable.
Paul Galea:
Well, we’ll leave it at that because I think that’s pretty good advice. I think the idea you’re talking about is that getting out of your comfort zone is particularly good advice, because one of the things that I’ve seen in my 63 years is that you need to be able to go with the punches, go with the flow when things aren’t particularly going that great, and the way to be able to do that is to have a really wide ranging life experience behind you. And I think travel is one of the best ways to do it. And we are IGS and the “I” part of the whole thing is all about that “International” outlook. And I think, what you’re saying fits exactly into that.
Eryk:
And you’ll never know when some of those lessons that you learn at school will come in handy. I mean, you know, I think, for example, my Japanese. I was not a particularly good Japanese student. I think Masumi Sensei and Tom Sensei and Lucy Sensei and the others would attest to that. But in this job, the experience, when I went on exchange and stayed with Japanese Home Stay when I was 10 years old is invaluable. I still tell people about that today, and they’ve been somewhat shocked that you could kind of send a primary school student off on a school exchange to Japan but it was totally formative. You know it really was one of those experiences. I was like, “Asia, This is where I want to be. This is an exciting place. A totally different world. It’s totally out of my comfort zone.” You know, I remember coming back from that trip and just being so upset that it was over and being determined to get back there. And I think, looking at the trajectory that has happened since then, where even though I might not have been the best student, the lessons that I learned from having those experiences were invaluable and even, just a month or so ago, I was reporting for 60 Minutes and I had to ask some difficult questions in an interview on camera, in Japanese, and it just came out, and in a way that I didn’t think it ever would have been able to! So those lessons a decade, fifteen years ago, more ; they stay in your brain in ways you could never imagine.
Paul Galea:
Yeah. No, that’s excellent, mate. I’m not sure; you’re basically not allowed to send a 10 year old on an excursion to the beach these days. So it’s a bit of a different world we live in, mate. It’s been really great catching up with you. We didn’t even get into the whole aftercare world, but …
Eryk:
I would say, actually, just a shout out to great people like Josh and Laurie and all the other characters that we were around up there with for many years. If you can get in there, after you finish school, it’s the best job you’ll ever have while you’re at uni, because it it gives you a few hours in the afternoon and I’d go and work in a bar or restaurant later at night. But it just means that you have the flexibility, that ability to be able to do uni work in the morning and then come and hang out with the kids in the afternoon and also keep a connection with the school community, like being able to chat with you again, old mate. I really valued it, so it’s definitely worthwhile for anyone who’s finishing up; get in touch with the ‘big man’.
Paul Galea:
Oh, I’m not doing it anymore.
Eryk:
That’s right! Of course. Yeah, you and Manuela retired!
Paul Galea:
The two old dogs have done out to pasture now!
Eryk:
Who is running it now?
Paul Galea:
A guy called David who was a primary teacher for many, many years. But anyway, that’s another story. All right, mate, we’re going to leave it at that because it’s going to take me 33 months to transcribe this.
Eryk:
OK, bye.